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Old 06.05.2010, 14:29   (permalink) #1
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Sacred 3 idea

I always wondered, what if Sacred was MMO?

And just a tought i said to miself "IT WOULD BE THE GREATEST GAME OF ALL TIMES IT SELF!".

Think about it.

Sacred, religious, nature, dungeons AND social.

Wouldn't it be great if for an example i get a realy rare item to get fancy infront of others? It increases the intrigue of the game.
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Old 06.05.2010, 15:10   (permalink) #2
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I can't say I like that idea much, for it to be a MMO you need to "dumb" it down to reach the masses, and that doesn't suit the Sacred series at all IMO.

PS, if you want to flash around with items in front of others you can just jump into a silver server, and show off what legendaries you found in Niob
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Old 06.05.2010, 16:47   (permalink) #3
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I play mainly SP, as the game hasn't let me connect to a server for some time (about two patches ago). I'm definitely against the Sacred brand going online only.
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Old 07.05.2010, 00:54   (permalink) #4
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A great idea, I just can't wait to team up with 1,3 billion other Fire-high elves with exactly the same skills/gear/stats. Since I thought the customisation-options in Sacred 2 were to few, in most cases you were forced to only use 3 skills + 1 buff from a certain school to be effective, and dumb that down even more?
Fire elf = fire ball. Inquisitor = emo/lower life = more damage?
No thanks :P
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Old 07.05.2010, 01:42   (permalink) #5
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I like fact every drop in game isn't rolled for, doing the same dungeon over and over just to be out rolled on the one drop you want there is not fun. I like not losing friends over drops, especially when the drops aren't really real. I like being able to pause the game & do other things, I like not having to play game at 4.00am in morning to run a dungeon with my guild because most of them live in USA, I like not having to go anywhere I may not really need to go to anymore.

MMO's can be fun, provided they don't turn into a glorified chat program (that is what WOW eventually became for me). Playing with friends is main reason I played that game for so long, without other people I doubt I would have played for 2 & 1/2 years. I have substituted these and other forums for online chat now.

Sacred 2 was going to have some MMO like features (Like the holidays were going to be changed every few months via updates, though we got stuck in Easter) but retain the stats. I like it that way.
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Old 24.05.2010, 13:36   (permalink) #6
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Sacred as a MMO? that would be the worst thing they could do to the game. The classes would get nerfed or empowered based on the whims of a minority. Look at Guild Wars when I first started playing PVE was fun but then we got PVPers whining about this class being powerful or this skill unbalance in PVP and now the game to me isn't fun anymore. Look at WoW that's a better known example of what will happen if Sacred was made a MMO. Since I didn't play PVP in Guild Wars (PVP is not very appealing to me as it offers nothing to me in terms of items or weapons that will make my char tougher or look cooler) I'll use WoW (even though it was a private server my friend tried to keep the classes like they were before the first nerfs) many claim the Shaman, Druid, and Mage classes were overpowered yet my friend who was an expert in those classes lost to me with my hunter 90% of the time and my warrior 50% of the time. Not saying all players would be like that just I noticed the majority I encountered were like that going oh this is so overpowered or we so underpowered we need more power when all you had to do was step back and think going ok this skill plus this skill plus this skill equals badly hurt mage now use this skill equals dead mage.
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Old 24.05.2010, 13:43   (permalink) #7
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Sacred as a MMO? that would be the worst thing they could do to the game. The classes would get nerfed or empowered based on the whims of a minority.
Agreeing on Sacred as MMO = bad, but flawed logic imo.
What you describe is no different than Sacred 2's balance. Less people whine here because less people play, its just a question of scale, not about being a MMO or not (and of course the importance of PvP, people like to whine more about PvP balance than PvE balance (maybe because more idiots like PvP? Thats an explanation I can support! :P).

Games being balanced post-release can pretty much only be a good thing.

PvP balance influencing PvE balance is annoying yes, (and why I generally prefer if PvP is kept at a minimum in games like Sacred), but that is a question of having decent developers not ruining one balance for the sake of another, again rather than the type of the game.

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Old 24.05.2010, 18:20   (permalink) #8
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(maybe because more idiots like PvP? Thats an explanation I can support! :P).
Thinking back to WOW, I believe you are 1000% percent correct
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Old 25.05.2010, 08:34   (permalink) #9
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1st of all, MMOs need good balance in PVP and PVC (player vs. comp), and a good economy. I.e. good items should have extremely high prices at vendors, so that even high-level players have to struggle to get the money to buy the best. They shouldn't sell for extremely much tho. S1 and S2 do that part well, in that there is a "fixed" barrier (governed by level, charisma and shopping skill) which cannot be broken.
Example: Say you can buy basic items for 2000 early on and sell them for 500. 4:1 ratio, not too bad to get started, and you won't lose heaps of money while trying different things. All in all, good enough for novice players.
Later, good rare items on vendors are at about 500k, and when you sell basic ("white")things, you get (say) 10-25k per item, and 30k for the ocasional rare. 15:1, still not too bad. Even a set item for a different class doesn't give you more than 32k. You sell it, only to discover that the vendor wants 100 MILLION for it.
--> Moral: you try to trade these good items to players, not to vendors. With vendors, you have to sell 3000 to buy 1. With players, you might be lucky and trade 1:1.

With the advent of MMO, things change.
There might be much better money making skills than fighting, which have to be balanced too. The time factor comes into play, and I suggest the following solution (to lessen the addiction factor somewhat, to ease the stress on the servers, and to balance the game WRT "casual" / "fun" players):
There should be a "happy hour": the 1st hour each day (or one in 48, or on in 72) should feature full income, full +EXP bonus, and full MF. All of the above should be on diminishing returns if you keep playing for more than one hour. 61st minute: you only get 60/61 (~98%) of your MF, +EXP, and income. 120st minute: 60/120, i.e. the values are halved. 300th minute: 60/300, i.e. only 20% of the values are accounted for. I made an Excel spreadsheet to sume up the effects, and it showed that 5 game hours solid are only as effective as three sessions of 52 minutes each, i.e. players are encouraged to play frequently but excessive playing is discouraged.
This is not the Silver Bullet, the Holy Grail, or even the Phaser of Kirk(tm) to online addiction, but it would be a rather simple and easy to implement measure, and more effective than an online time counter alone.

The company has to run their servers much more reliably, but OTOH, they don't need much CP. Because you can't do anything without an account on the server, copying the media becomes useless. Not to them, tho... more people are attracted to their servers, and they didn't even have to provide the media.
Less CP --> cleaner code, less bugs, less compatibility issues.

The balance issue remains, esp. in PVP. PVP is all about competition. How to remove the compet' with minimum effort: complain about imbalance and have the company nerf the other classes and/or builds.
There could be some auto-nerfing, i.e. the more chars of one build there are, the less powerful their skill will become. Everyone does Fire Elves? Fine... their skills will diminish slightly each time a fire skill is used. (Run totals about skill usage and kills, and adjust one per day, or so.) Until they can do that...
If a good PVP experience is what you want, play C-strike. Nuff said.



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Old 25.05.2010, 10:57   (permalink) #10
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I like the idea, but it won't work because of:

1) Servercost: Currently servers costs about 50K Euro's a MONTH. MMO servers where more players can enter probably cost more. Only way for a company to have these servers is to charge the players.
Most important reason for a lot of players (at least for me) was that MP was free.
Having dedicated servers for clans might be a cheaper solution. And one I might consider paying for.

2) Community appearance:

Back in the early days of S1 we had a wonderful community. Someone entered a lower server with his / her Vamp, said "Hi all. Free items at Island" and emptied both his / her personal stash as well as the inventory. More important, NO-ONE had to ask for stuff, as it was given to one anyway sooner or later.

By the end of S/UW that MMO WoW had started and it was noticed. We still had the regular visits of players dropping items, however new players entered servers, saying :"How do I get to level 260 fast?" or "I need Faladal's Axe. Who has it?"
Same type of players grabbed as much as they could from an island drop, just to move to another server and sell all they couldn't use.
Not to mention they often stole XP and drops by finishing quests others were doing. All to get to the highest level as fast as possible.
And as a result the area's where leveling goes faster, always have campers, just like we had campers in the Orc Cave and Ghost Cave.

3) It's impossible to balance classes; no matter how much it's going to be tried. In fact: if all classes would be equaly strong, the fun of the game is gone.
The purpose of a ranged class is to kill at a distance. Players complaining that a PVP ranger killed a melee player at a distance forget that the ranger just did what it was designed for.
Rangers complaining that a melee char killed them in close combat, forget that a ranger isn't meant to do so.
Even the kind of weapons you use has influence at what you can or can't kill and the more modifiers a char gets, the harder it is to balance.


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Old 31.05.2010, 17:45   (permalink) #11
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With the advent of MMO, things change.
There might be much better money making skills than fighting, which have to be balanced too. The time factor comes into play, and I suggest the following solution (to lessen the addiction factor somewhat, to ease the stress on the servers, and to balance the game WRT "casual" / "fun" players):
There should be a "happy hour": the 1st hour each day (or one in 48, or on in 72) should feature full income, full +EXP bonus, and full MF. All of the above should be on diminishing returns if you keep playing for more than one hour. 61st minute: you only get 60/61 (~98%) of your MF, +EXP, and income. 120st minute: 60/120, i.e. the values are halved. 300th minute: 60/300, i.e. only 20% of the values are accounted for. I made an Excel spreadsheet to sume up the effects, and it showed that 5 game hours solid are only as effective as three sessions of 52 minutes each, i.e. players are encouraged to play frequently but excessive playing is discouraged.
This is not the Silver Bullet, the Holy Grail, or even the Phaser of Kirk(tm) to online addiction, but it would be a rather simple and easy to implement measure, and more effective than an online time counter alone.
Sorry for the long post...

Something like this might become very unpopular, if not even a game-killer.
Imagine someone who can only play in the weekend, but then 5 hours for those two days. They would be severely punished compared to someone who could play 1 hour each day.

There should never be restrictions on hours played tbh. It is not the game developers job to combat whatever gaming addictions their players might have.
Instead the game (if MMO or heavily based on multiplayer community) should be designed in ways which means people who play 5x as much as someone else doesn't necessarily reap 5x the rewards (whereas if that player plays 5x as good or effective, reaping 5 times the rewards might be okay).
Plenty of ways to do this and most MMOs already learned how to do so. For example:
1) Not basing the game on a 'Gold' (aka. currency) economy.
I believe it is pretty much impossible to make a stable gold economy, where everything can be sold and bought.
While theoretically possible, I just don't see it happen in reality. Farming and gold-selling will have too much influence.

The second reason for failure usually is that no game I'm aware of, has ever managed to put enough gold-sinks into a game to balance out the gold income. It seems like an impossible task. Probably because the more gold-sinks, the more people will farm for gold. Gold is an unlimited resource in these games, which in the end is the cause of all problems (compared to IRL, where money clearly isn't unlimited, as long as our governments don't keep printing them... which they don't do as it is baad ). Having a game with limited gold-income is something I can't imagine how would work though, which might either be due to my lack of imagination, or simply because it couldn't work.

Star Wars Galazies have probably had one of the best economies of any MMO yet, and somewhat disproves my claim that they cant exist.
It was nearly 100% based on currency trading, and nearly everything was tradeable. Also, you could place Automatic mining devices, which did the actual mining for you, so how much you actually played did not have as much impact as it could have had otherwise.
However, it was also a very unpopular game (for good reasons), and all things considered it is easier to have a stable economy in a small community than a big one. As such, it is very likely the economy in SWG would have crashed if it had more players.
Of course that could somewhat be controlled by setting strict rules on how many players each server can have, but more popular games will always attract more gold-sellers/farmers.

Other MMOs, like WoW, Warhammer, LOTRO and most other big ones, has taken a very strict approach to this issue, simply by making the best items non-tradeable (Bind on Pickup, Equip etc.).
It doesn't really fix the economy as much as it destroys it. But since the economy is more or less dead, it becomes less important if it works anyway, so this is considered the best solution by many MMO developers.
The result is that only sub-par items and more or less cosmetic items, as well as some crafted consumable items (and while they can be 'best' items in a sense, they are also consumables, which by itself keeps their prices in check) are traded in the economy.

The question is however, would Sacred still be Sacred if the trading was severely limited?
Personally I wouldn't mind, since I pretty much never trade in any A-RPG, playing mostly alone or with friends, but my impression is lots of fans would hate such a restriction on trading.

It is interesting to follow Diablo 3's development on this issue (as well as most other issues really), as they try to tackle the problems.
Their Devs have claimed they want a stable currency-based economy, and that they have the means to ensure it will happen.
Considering my opinion under 1) it should be obvious that I expect them to fail with such a goal.
However, they seem to have taken one interesting step toward restricting the 'everything can be traded' paradigm. Their current plan is to make high-end items (like lvl 80+ out of 100 lvl's) Bind on Equip, meaning you can trade them as much as you want, but if someone ever equips it, it becomes untradeable.
The goal is obvious: To take items out of the economy over time.
This is a very good solution in my opinion (as long as they make bound items tradeable between a players own characters at least - as a mean for remaking chars, and giving old gear to alts), but also one which are bound to piss off a lot of people, since it clearly put restrictions on trading.
However, while this will combat the inflation of end-game items, it will not really do anything for gold economy itself, so the main issue persists.

The Diablo guys in general seem very clever about their design, so maybe they will impress me, but until proven otherwise, I believe ALL games are destined to fail when it comes to having a healthy, stable currency-based economy in the long run.

A small note on the alternatives to gold-economies: Players of Sacred obviously knows of the most used alternative, as do players of any other A-RPG really. Item-trading, or goods trading. Since the currency becomes worthless over time, no one wants to trade with it, and instead they trade in items.
In Diablo 2 this resulted in the SoJ-economy, which was no better than a failed gold-economy, as SoJs simply became the new currency.
Even a working goods-economy isn't that good a solution though, as it becomes insanely difficult to put a price-value on every valuable item compared to each other (which is kinda one of the reasons for inventing money in the first place). Also, items can be farmed just like money (also plenty of item sellers in Diablo 2, even if there was no gold sellers), so again, the problem isn't removed, just changed a bit.

2) As far as not reading people who play a lot, way too heavily compared to casually, this does not seem to be huge problem.
Plenty of MMO's have tried to solve this problem, and as it usually connects to the economy aspect, so does the solutions.

One solution, although only for XP, which seems a lot like your idea, is the 'rested XP' you see in nearly all MMOs nowadays.
If you are offline you accumulate a bonus to XP gain, which can then be used when online later. By making the bonus this way, you are rewarding people who log out for 5 days (ie. only play in weekend) pretty much the same as someone who logs out for 20 hours only (ie. play every day), while somewhat penalizing people who plays too much for the rest bonus to accumulate.
However, XP usually doesn't mean a whole lot in MMO's as you get to max lvl before the end-game portion of the game opens up, and as such, the rested XP change very little at all.
Sure, you could change such a system to work for item drops, gold gain etc. But really, all it would do is pissing people off, and make the farmers buy multiple accounts they could switch between to keep their 100% rates on everything.

What MMOs typically do to restrict the time benefits is the aforementioned Bound on Pickup system. Even if you play enough to get X item twice, you cant really use it for anything since you have the item already and it cant be traded.
Also there is the lockout timers for many MMOs, where the best ways to get items have restricted access, ie. if you do this activity, then you cant do it for another day/week etc.
Lockout timers would hardly work for a Sacred game, although I guess there could be somewhat similar methods for discouraging boss-farming for example.
Like reducing droprates from killing the same mob multiple times shortly after each other. Again a question of whether this penalize people more than it benefits the game though.

Quote:
The purpose of a ranged class is to kill at a distance. Players complaining that a PVP ranger killed a melee player at a distance forget that the ranger just did what it was designed for.
Rangers complaining that a melee char killed them in close combat, forget that a ranger isn't meant to do so.
Even the kind of weapons you use has influence at what you can or can't kill and the more modifiers a char gets, the harder it is to balance.
Exactly. 1 vs 1 PVP is an abomination in RPGs.
It's the good old parody with 'Omg Scissors beat paper, NERF!'.
An actual PVP system in any RPG needs to be group-based in my opinion (which isn't to say the game cant have 1vs1 just for fun, but it has to be clear by the game-design that it is not the way PVP in the game was meant).
That said, all classes can be equally strong, but through different means.
A healer can be equally strong as a DPS ranger. They do two very different tasks (one heal another kills), so they are impossible to compare, but if they are equally useful in PvP it is fair to assume they are reasonably balanced.
Likewise in PvE (Of course pure healers have no place in an A-RPG like Sacred), a 'tank' class, a melee dps class and a ranged class does things very differently, but it doesn't mean you can't have some sort of balance in effectiveness between them.
Also A-RPG classes typically aims for a huge amount of diversity, so one class often have (and should have) multiple available specs, e.g. both tanking, melee, ranged, magic and a little bit of healing. Even if Sacred 2 isn't very well balanced, it represents this diversity pretty good.

Last edited by Shadout : 31.05.2010 at 18:11.
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Old 01.06.2010, 13:06   (permalink) #12
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Wow! That is a long post (but fortunately written in good english & interesting).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadout View Post
One solution, although only for XP, which seems a lot like your idea, is the 'rested XP' you see in nearly all MMOs nowadays.
If you are offline you accumulate a bonus to XP gain, which can then be used when online later. By making the bonus this way, you are rewarding people who log out for 5 days (ie. only play in weekend) pretty much the same as someone who logs out for 20 hours only (ie. play every day), while somewhat penalizing people who plays too much for the rest bonus to accumulate.
However, XP usually doesn't mean a whole lot in MMO's as you get to max lvl before the end-game portion of the game opens up, and as such, the rested XP change very little at all.
Sure, you could change such a system to work for item drops, gold gain etc. But really, all it would do is pissing people off, and make the farmers buy multiple accounts they could switch between to keep their 100% rates on everything.
That could be interesting for Sacred, to help people who don't play much not fall "too far" behind those who do play alot.

Quote:
1 vs 1 PVP is an abomination in RPGs.
It's the good old parody with 'Omg Scissors beat paper, NERF!'.
An actual PVP system in any RPG needs to be group-based in my opinion (which isn't to say the game cant have 1vs1 just for fun, but it has to be clear by the game-design that it is not the way PVP in the game was meant).
That said, all classes can be equally strong, but through different means.
A healer can be equally strong as a DPS ranger. They do two very different tasks (one heal another kills), so they are impossible to compare, but if they are equally useful in PvP it is fair to assume they are reasonably balanced.
Likewise in PvE (Of course pure healers have no place in an A-RPG like Sacred), a 'tank' class, a melee dps class and a ranged class does things very differently, but it doesn't mean you can't have some sort of balance in effectiveness between them.
Also A-RPG classes typically aims for a huge amount of diversity, so one class often have (and should have) multiple available specs, e.g. both tanking, melee, ranged, magic and a little bit of healing. Even if Sacred 2 isn't very well balanced, it represents this diversity pretty good.
I personally think that the best way of dealing with this (having to balance a CA/skill/etc for both PvP & PvE) is the way Guild Wars did it. Some skills have slightly different effects/values in PvP. It might be more work, but it would allow you to balance CAs more effectively for the two fundamentally different regimes.
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Old 05.06.2010, 16:48   (permalink) #13
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WOW did something to balance play a little, I recall there being a period when you just logon that you get bonus exp, provided you camped in a city or inn. So perhaps for every day not played, the period extends so you can catch up to those that play all the time.

Nerfing characters for pvp, I don't miss that. Balance is pretty difficult when everyone screams that every one else is OP, No pvp is better as everyone can have op characters and no one gets hurt.
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Old 05.06.2010, 23:12   (permalink) #14
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Being OP isnt that fun. You should feel overpowered (by having cool abilities etc), but never really be so. That only makes the game easy and boring.

Quote:
Balance is pretty difficult when everyone screams that every one else is OP
If everyone scream everyone else are OP that is typically a good sign of balance though, and then nerfing or buffing wont be needed
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Old 06.06.2010, 19:02   (permalink) #15
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WOW did something to balance play a little, I recall there being a period when you just logon that you get bonus exp, provided you camped in a city or inn. So perhaps for every day not played, the period extends so you can catch up to those that play all the time.
yeah the longer you stayed logged out the more bonus XP you could gained before it goes back to normal.

Quote:
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Nerfing characters for pvp, I don't miss that. Balance is pretty difficult when everyone screams that every one else is OP, No pvp is better as everyone can have op characters and no one gets hurt.
Nerfing isn't really necessary as there isn't really any class that's overpowered in reality just players have to learn to use their skills more effectively.

Quote:
I personally think that the best way of dealing with this (having to balance a CA/skill/etc for both PvP & PvE) is the way Guild Wars did it. Some skills have slightly different effects/values in PvP. It might be more work, but it would allow you to balance CAs more effectively for the two fundamentally different regimes.
At first they just nerfed skills but after much complaints from the PVE community they startled to incorporate that system into gameplay starting at I think Eyes of the North maybe sooner I forgot when.
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